<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on: Are Humans Hard-Wired to Torture?</title> <atom:link href="http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/</link> <description>Topics from multidimensional biopsychosocial perspectives</description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 18:44:48 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Farewell 2009, Welcome 2010 &#124; Brain Blogger</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-598361</link> <dc:creator>Farewell 2009, Welcome 2010 &#124; Brain Blogger</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:37:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-598361</guid> <description>[...] writer/editor (Autism &#8211; No Need For A Cure?); Dr. Sajid Surve, physiatrist and osteopath (Are Humans Hard-Wired to Torture?); and the more than 50 other [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] writer/editor (Autism &#8211; No Need For A Cure?); Dr. Sajid Surve, physiatrist and osteopath (Are Humans Hard-Wired to Torture?); and the more than 50 other [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chris &#124; Martial Development</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-560132</link> <dc:creator>Chris &#124; Martial Development</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:47:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-560132</guid> <description>What percentage of the test subjects were chronic drug users?  Surely that would affect their &quot;hard-wired&quot; behavior.The drugs under experimental control should include caffeine, tobacco, and sugar, which are all known to influence human judgment.An experiment performed with aboriginal bushmen might lend some credence to the &quot;hard-wired&quot; conclusion.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What percentage of the test subjects were chronic drug users?  Surely that would affect their &#8220;hard-wired&#8221; behavior.</p><p>The drugs under experimental control should include caffeine, tobacco, and sugar, which are all known to influence human judgment.</p><p>An experiment performed with aboriginal bushmen might lend some credence to the &#8220;hard-wired&#8221; conclusion.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: http://www.kojj.com</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-551479</link> <dc:creator>http://www.kojj.com</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:10:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-551479</guid> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Are Humans Hard-Wired to Torture?...&lt;/strong&gt;With the reign of the Bush administration at an end, one issue that has plagued his legacy is the government-sanctioned acts of torture. The United States government was involved with several controversial actions ranging from the indefinite detention ...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Are Humans Hard-Wired to Torture?&#8230;</strong></p><p>With the reign of the Bush administration at an end, one issue that has plagued his legacy is the government-sanctioned acts of torture. The United States government was involved with several controversial actions ranging from the indefinite detention &#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Carlotta</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-534465</link> <dc:creator>Carlotta</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 15:56:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-534465</guid> <description>The motto of our local school is &quot;Serve and Obey&quot;.  Although a private school, this ethos pretty much applies throughout the schooling system in the Western world and would suggest that we inculcate the population to behave in exactly the way that Milgram demonstrated.However, I wonder what would happen if you took a cohort of children who were raised to be autonomous, rational individuals, used to thinking for themselves and assessing the worth of theories, even when these theories issue from an apparently authoritative figure?Unusual they may be, but such children do exist in the form of autonomously home educated children.  I know quite a few of these and regard their expressions of rational scepticism at some of the stuff that teachers of their occasional classes tell them as being extremely healthy. Such children are also not confused on the ethics of cruelty...for example: they are not told not to bully by people (teachers) who frequently repeatedly bully them.I would therefore say that it is almost impossible to conclude with any certainty that a trait either towards cruelty or deference to authority is hard-wired, since we educate our youngsters to behave in exactly this sort of a way all the time.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The motto of our local school is &#8220;Serve and Obey&#8221;.  Although a private school, this ethos pretty much applies throughout the schooling system in the Western world and would suggest that we inculcate the population to behave in exactly the way that Milgram demonstrated.</p><p>However, I wonder what would happen if you took a cohort of children who were raised to be autonomous, rational individuals, used to thinking for themselves and assessing the worth of theories, even when these theories issue from an apparently authoritative figure?</p><p>Unusual they may be, but such children do exist in the form of autonomously home educated children.  I know quite a few of these and regard their expressions of rational scepticism at some of the stuff that teachers of their occasional classes tell them as being extremely healthy.</p><p>Such children are also not confused on the ethics of cruelty&#8230;for example: they are not told not to bully by people (teachers) who frequently repeatedly bully them.</p><p>I would therefore say that it is almost impossible to conclude with any certainty that a trait either towards cruelty or deference to authority is hard-wired, since we educate our youngsters to behave in exactly this sort of a way all the time.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Howard</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-533578</link> <dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 14:25:11 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-533578</guid> <description>It(He,She) is lamentable these things, because a time ago behind wise that the medical services were a problem for many persons and up to the moment they neither find they do not even give any solution, apparently the government forgot what promised and it is now where it is that to there be remembered(reminded), before that is very late, the medical assurance is important for many people, like that they indicate it in findrxonline, the page that delivers a lot of information about this debate.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It(He,She) is lamentable these things, because a time ago behind wise that the medical services were a problem for many persons and up to the moment they neither find they do not even give any solution, apparently the government forgot what promised and it is now where it is that to there be remembered(reminded), before that is very late, the medical assurance is important for many people, like that they indicate it in findrxonline, the page that delivers a lot of information about this debate.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-533460</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 00:47:13 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-533460</guid> <description>Parking lot example - Understandable, but more likely a phenomenon merely the result of rational thought- where do you think the first individual to show up parked?  Probably not on the opposite side of the entrance.  It seems that in the parking lot, there is an incentive to follow the collective majority, not so much in the torture chamber.  Scary stuff, but I dig it.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parking lot example &#8211; Understandable, but more likely a phenomenon merely the result of rational thought- where do you think the first individual to show up parked?  Probably not on the opposite side of the entrance.  It seems that in the parking lot, there is an incentive to follow the collective majority, not so much in the torture chamber.  Scary stuff, but I dig it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anne</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-533065</link> <dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 14:25:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-533065</guid> <description>It tells us something about fear of authorities, I have to agree with most reactions here. And as we come to that conclusion, it seems a logical step to prosecute the authorities as well, since they took advantage of that human trait ...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It tells us something about fear of authorities, I have to agree with most reactions here.<br /> And as we come to that conclusion, it seems a logical step to prosecute the authorities as well, since they took advantage of that human trait &#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Wabi</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-533032</link> <dc:creator>Wabi</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 08:02:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-533032</guid> <description>Humans go against their evolved and sophisticated better judgement everyday.  It&#039;s not necessarily the  cognitive apparatus that&#039;s functionally deficient, but the conditions sufficient for that apparatus to work optimally - and those conditions are countless and varied.  The fact that the apparatus fails to activate properly, is not a reflection on the moral or cognitive degeneracy of the owner.For e.g.: if someone twists my arm to the point of dislocation, my arm is no longer optimally functional and my usage will be compromised somewhat.  If perchance, in the aftermath of my accident I were to witness a defenceless old lady being mugged, my ability to physically attempt to apprehend the offender may be diminished and the offender might not be brought to justice by my own hand.  This is not to say I would be considered morally corrupt because my piss-weak effort would be judged to be disproportionate to the situation in hand, but rather the power of an unfortunate external condition would have affected my capacities.   Ergo, my hypothetical self is not a sadistic old lady hater, but a product of a  circumstantial blip.  My hard-wiring, so to speak, is still intact.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humans go against their evolved and sophisticated better judgement everyday.  It&#8217;s not necessarily the  cognitive apparatus that&#8217;s functionally deficient, but the conditions sufficient for that apparatus to work optimally &#8211; and those conditions are countless and varied.  The fact that the apparatus fails to activate properly, is not a reflection on the moral or cognitive degeneracy of the owner.</p><p>For e.g.: if someone twists my arm to the point of dislocation, my arm is no longer optimally functional and my usage will be compromised somewhat.  If perchance, in the aftermath of my accident I were to witness a defenceless old lady being mugged, my ability to physically attempt to apprehend the offender may be diminished and the offender might not be brought to justice by my own hand.  This is not to say I would be considered morally corrupt because my piss-weak effort would be judged to be disproportionate to the situation in hand, but rather the power of an unfortunate external condition would have affected my capacities.   Ergo, my hypothetical self is not a sadistic old lady hater, but a product of a  circumstantial blip.  My hard-wiring, so to speak, is still intact.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brooklyndo2</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532991</link> <dc:creator>Brooklyndo2</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 02:35:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532991</guid> <description>There is a quite simple and very simplistic reason for what Dr. Saj is talking about.  Humans are basically pack animals.... we are bred to conform with as little thought about it as possible.  That is how we survived to achieve any civilization.  Simple proof of our tendency to conform : look at any parking lot from the time it is empty, and note that cars will tend to cluster around each other.  When I initially emailed Dr. Surve the article ( selfless plug, yes.  Im shameless), I did not think it would be spun into a blog tying into current politics. But,  it does make for better press. :-)    We tend to conform to what we consider the norm and put that first not because of an ingrained (possibly genetic level) need to conform... just think of junior high and high school and stereotypical behaviour.  We tend to follow the Johnson&#039;s so to speak. I only wonder if any good studies were done on providing pleasure to others... If we could prove somehow that humans tend to have a lower rate of compliance to providing pleasure... now that would be interesting indeed...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a quite simple and very simplistic reason for what Dr. Saj is talking about.  Humans are basically pack animals&#8230;. we are bred to conform with as little thought about it as possible.  That is how we survived to achieve any civilization.  Simple proof of our tendency to conform : look at any parking lot from the time it is empty, and note that cars will tend to cluster around each other.  When I initially emailed Dr. Surve the article ( selfless plug, yes.  Im shameless), I did not think it would be spun into a blog tying into current politics. But,  it does make for better press. <img src='http://dna.brainblogger.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> We tend to conform to what we consider the norm and put that first not because of an ingrained (possibly genetic level) need to conform&#8230; just think of junior high and high school and stereotypical behaviour.  We tend to follow the Johnson&#8217;s so to speak.<br /> I only wonder if any good studies were done on providing pleasure to others&#8230; If we could prove somehow that humans tend to have a lower rate of compliance to providing pleasure&#8230; now that would be interesting indeed&#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mike</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532938</link> <dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 20:37:52 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532938</guid> <description>I think that we&#039;re all actually much closer to being on the same page than we think.  The bottom line is that our need to obey or conform (the impetus for which is worthy of its own body of work, which I&#039;m certain is available) has the ability to trump our morality.  Hell, history teaches us that.There are any number of factors inherent in the design and conduct of the experiment that could explain some of the nuances of the results and some of the particular behavior or reactions of the participants.  But the bottom line (on which it would seem we all agree) is indeed the most important point here, and it scares the hell out of me.Oh, and I of course exclude Happeh from my comments.  We can &quot;never be sure&quot; about psychology...but we can be certain about &quot;eating&quot; the &quot;energy&quot; from the guy in the next room.  Got it.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that we&#8217;re all actually much closer to being on the same page than we think.  The bottom line is that our need to obey or conform (the impetus for which is worthy of its own body of work, which I&#8217;m certain is available) has the ability to trump our morality.  Hell, history teaches us that.</p><p>There are any number of factors inherent in the design and conduct of the experiment that could explain some of the nuances of the results and some of the particular behavior or reactions of the participants.  But the bottom line (on which it would seem we all agree) is indeed the most important point here, and it scares the hell out of me.</p><p>Oh, and I of course exclude Happeh from my comments.  We can &#8220;never be sure&#8221; about psychology&#8230;but we can be certain about &#8220;eating&#8221; the &#8220;energy&#8221; from the guy in the next room.  Got it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Pteryxx</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532932</link> <dc:creator>Pteryxx</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 18:59:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532932</guid> <description>Correction to myself:  60% of participants continued administering shocks, as cited in the above article.  70% was the figure cited in my psychology class today.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction to myself:  60% of participants continued administering shocks, as cited in the above article.  70% was the figure cited in my psychology class today.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Pteryxx</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532931</link> <dc:creator>Pteryxx</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 18:56:29 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532931</guid> <description>Humans certainly can choose to inflict harm on others without a second thought, in lots of scenarios besides that of torture-from-authority:  in warfare, mob violence, hate crimes, law enforcement, domestic abuse, and when in fear for their own lives, for instance.  I just think that your title phrase doesn&#039;t follow from the article.In your clarification, you claim the participants must not &quot;truly&quot; have had moral objections to torture, or else they wouldn&#039;t have participated.  How can you make any claims about their moral beliefs?  I interpret their distress at the situation as evidence that the participants do have objections, probably moral objections, but that in most cases those objections are easily overridden by the mere presence of an authority figure.  The lack of direct coercion does not mean that 70% of the experimenters lacked moral objection to torture, as you claim.  It simply wasn&#039;t strong enough to overcome whatever rationalizations they made to themselves to justify their actions.  If the participants had been polled beforehand on their attitudes toward torture or punishment, and thus primed to consider their actions in that light, the experiment &lt;em&gt;may&lt;/em&gt; have had different results.All we can conclude from the Milgram experiments is that our obedience often trumps our morality.  That&#039;s a terrifying enough lesson without claiming that we&#039;re all natural-born torturers.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humans certainly can choose to inflict harm on others without a second thought, in lots of scenarios besides that of torture-from-authority:  in warfare, mob violence, hate crimes, law enforcement, domestic abuse, and when in fear for their own lives, for instance.  I just think that your title phrase doesn&#8217;t follow from the article.</p><p>In your clarification, you claim the participants must not &#8220;truly&#8221; have had moral objections to torture, or else they wouldn&#8217;t have participated.  How can you make any claims about their moral beliefs?  I interpret their distress at the situation as evidence that the participants do have objections, probably moral objections, but that in most cases those objections are easily overridden by the mere presence of an authority figure.  The lack of direct coercion does not mean that 70% of the experimenters lacked moral objection to torture, as you claim.  It simply wasn&#8217;t strong enough to overcome whatever rationalizations they made to themselves to justify their actions.  If the participants had been polled beforehand on their attitudes toward torture or punishment, and thus primed to consider their actions in that light, the experiment <em>may</em> have had different results.</p><p>All we can conclude from the Milgram experiments is that our obedience often trumps our morality.  That&#8217;s a terrifying enough lesson without claiming that we&#8217;re all natural-born torturers.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Sajid Surve, DO</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532924</link> <dc:creator>Sajid Surve, DO</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 17:49:08 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532924</guid> <description>I appreciate the numerous comments to this article!  I wanted to clarify my conclusions and add some fuel for thought.1.  I am aware of the Stanford prison experiment, but this article was meant to highlight the recent approval for a recreation of the Milgram experiment, and how despite a 30-year gap the compliance rates still remained the same.2.  I understand where people are coming from with their dispute of my conclusion.  Although I didn&#039;t include these points in my article, I wanted to add them here.  In Dr. Milgram&#039;s book, he talks about his various recreations of this study, and he brings up some caveats which he found curious.  Firstly, almost nobody inquired about the well-being of the victim that they were torturing, even after the study was concluded.  Nobody independently chose to contact authorities or call an ambulance or even knock on the door to see if the victim was still alive (remember for the highest shocks the victim falls silent).3.  Nobody put a gun to the head of the participants.  Nobody forced them or threatened bodily harm if they did not comply with the experiment.  If they truly had a moral objection to torture and refused to torture under any circumstances, then this scenario should have proven an easy refusal on their part.  More often than not, however, these subjects chose to willfully suppress their feelings and comply.  The situation was distressing, but they went along with it with minimal encouragement.When I conclude that humans are hard-wired for torture, I am implying that when put into certain scenarios, we have the capacity to inflict harm on another person without regard for their well-being.  That is not to say that I condone torture or even give a free pass to those who committed torture.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the numerous comments to this article!  I wanted to clarify my conclusions and add some fuel for thought.</p><p>1.  I am aware of the Stanford prison experiment, but this article was meant to highlight the recent approval for a recreation of the Milgram experiment, and how despite a 30-year gap the compliance rates still remained the same.</p><p>2.  I understand where people are coming from with their dispute of my conclusion.  Although I didn&#8217;t include these points in my article, I wanted to add them here.  In Dr. Milgram&#8217;s book, he talks about his various recreations of this study, and he brings up some caveats which he found curious.  Firstly, almost nobody inquired about the well-being of the victim that they were torturing, even after the study was concluded.  Nobody independently chose to contact authorities or call an ambulance or even knock on the door to see if the victim was still alive (remember for the highest shocks the victim falls silent).</p><p>3.  Nobody put a gun to the head of the participants.  Nobody forced them or threatened bodily harm if they did not comply with the experiment.  If they truly had a moral objection to torture and refused to torture under any circumstances, then this scenario should have proven an easy refusal on their part.  More often than not, however, these subjects chose to willfully suppress their feelings and comply.  The situation was distressing, but they went along with it with minimal encouragement.</p><p>When I conclude that humans are hard-wired for torture, I am implying that when put into certain scenarios, we have the capacity to inflict harm on another person without regard for their well-being.  That is not to say that I condone torture or even give a free pass to those who committed torture.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532919</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 16:48:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532919</guid> <description>Hap, the concept of &quot;human energy&quot; is non-scientific(and rather dumb), which is why no one is taking it seriously.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hap, the concept of &#8220;human energy&#8221; is non-scientific(and rather dumb), which is why no one is taking it seriously.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Monday&#8217;s reads at About Anything</title><link>http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/04/are-humans-hard-wired-to-torture/#comment-532918</link> <dc:creator>Monday&#8217;s reads at About Anything</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 16:41:17 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://brainblogger.com/?p=2659#comment-532918</guid> <description>[...] Sajid Surve reviews experiements done by Stanley Milgram and Jerry Burger and concludes, sadly, that when presented with a perceived authority figure, the majority of people will override their moral compass in favor of obedience. [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sajid Surve reviews experiements done by Stanley Milgram and Jerry Burger and concludes, sadly, that when presented with a perceived authority figure, the majority of people will override their moral compass in favor of obedience. [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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